It is now official, now that the Wall Street Journal has stopped being the cheerleaders for more H-1Bs.  And it is also amazing that the "Indian outsourcing giants" can call this bill discriminatory when they refuse hire Americans to staff consulting gigs in the US, and instead turn every fucking project they take over it a nepotistic curry den:

A fight is brewing between Washington and New Delhi over provisions in the U.S.'s draft immigration bill that could hobble Indian outsourcing firms' businesses in the U.S.

The proposals, which include cutting back sharply on the number of foreign workers these outsourcing companies can send to their U.S. offices, have won broad support from rival U.S. technology firms, including International Business Machines Corp. IBM +0.05% and Accenture ACN +1.98% PLC, lobbyists say.

India's $110 billion IT industry, which performs back-office tasks such as software programming, makes about half its revenue from the U.S.

Indian companies such as Infosys Ltd., 500209.BY -0.84% Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. 532540.BY -1.16% and Wipro Ltd. 507685.BY -0.82% have set up large U.S. offices to be closer to clients, staffing the sites overwhelmingly with Indian expatriates, who earn significantly less than their American counterparts.

The model has been challenged in recent years by U.S. politicians, who argue Indian outsourcing companies are misusing the program to undercut local technology-sector workers.

Now, big U.S. tech companies, which want to hire more foreign workers but can't because of competition with Indian firms for available visas, have joined the fray.

U.S. tech firms successfully lobbied for the draft immigration bill to include caps on the number of foreign workers a U.S.-based company can employ on skilled-worker visas, according to lobbyists working for U.S. firms and another representing Indian outsourcers.

The bill doesn't name countries. But Indian outsourcing giants sponsor more than half the 65,000 skilled-worker permits, known as H1-B visas, that the U.S. issues annually to workers with at least a bachelor's degree.

Many of these firms have as much as 80% of their staff in the U.S. on H1-B and other visas. The draft legislation, which is being debated in the Senate Judiciary Committee this week, would prohibit companies with more than 75% of their employees in the U.S. on such visas from bringing in additional workers. That figure would fall to 65% within a year, and in the years after that the limit would be 50%.

IBM and Accenture declined to comment.

The U.S. firms are seeking to hire more foreign workers for high-skilled jobs but face a visa shortage because of competition with Indian firms.

Earlier this month, U.S.-based employers exhausted the annual 65,000-person quota for H1-B visas within days of the opening of applications, a sign of the strengthening domestic economy.

The immigration bill also seeks to raise the yearly cap on H1-B visas to 180,000. The cap on foreign workers means U.S. companies could benefit, while Indian firms would have to hire more U.S. employees.

Firms that don't comply will be barred from sending consultants to work in clients' offices, a business that accounts for roughly 50% of Indian companies' revenue in the U.S.

The foreign-worker caps were designed to get political backing to increase the number of available H1-B visas, people familiar with the negotiations said, and U.S. firms were concerned that a broader curb on visas would reduce their ability to hire more from overseas amid a dearth of U.S. computer graduates

Som Mittal, president of the National Association of Software and Services Companies, an India IT trade body, warned the bill was "discriminatory" and might ignite a trade war. The association estimates the regulations could wipe out a quarter of the Indian IT sector's global revenue.

Indian Finance Minister P. Chidambaram raised concerns about the bill with U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew during a meeting last week in Washington. He told Mr. Lew the issue of short-term work visas shouldn't be mixed up with immigration, according to an account of the meeting Mr. Chidambaram gave to Indian media.

Commercial relations between the nations are already tense because of recent Indian regulations that would impose a sweeping "Buy India" mandate, requiring that large portions of high-tech products purchased by the government be manufactured locally. U.S. and other foreign companies are lobbying against the rules, saying they conflict with free-trade norms. Other areas of contention include India's efforts to increase its tax haul, which overseas companies complain has caused confusion for investors.

India argues the provisions are needed to curb technology imports from the U.S. and spur domestic manufacturing.

Indian companies claim the U.S.'s latest proposals to restrict visas could also amount to restrictions on free trade.

But many U.S. members of Congress contend India is misusing the H-1B system to bring in fairly low-skilled employees, denying those places to higher-skilled workers that U.S. firms want to hire.

On Monday, at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee to discuss the immigration bill, Brad Smith, Microsoft Corp.'s MSFT +3.79% chief counsel, said the company couldn't get enough visas for high-skilled jobs that it can't fill through hiring in the U.S.

"We are not able to fill all the jobs that we are creating," Mr. Smith said in testimony. He told the committee that Indian outsourcing firms must "evolve their business models" by hiring more Americans.

Microsoft and IBM have recently expanded their presence in India, where they have hired thousands of local employees.

Sen. Richard Durbin (D., Ill.) said in response that the situation was an abuse of the visa regime. "Most people would think, well, Microsoft needs these folks," he said. "And they'd be shocked to know that most of the H-1B visas are not going to companies like yours. They're going to these outsourcing companies."

Indian firms say that over the past three years, in anticipation of the visa changes, they began hiring U.S. employees at a faster rate than new foreign workers.

Nasscom, the association of Indian IT firms, said the efforts faced roadblocks because of a lack of qualified U.S. graduates.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2013, the U.S. economy will create approximately 120,000 new jobs for people with degrees in computer science.

In his testimony before the Senate committee, Mr. Smith of Microsoft said that, by his own company's calculations, U.S. colleges produce under half that number of graduates annually.

The party is over, maderchods.  Even the high-tech junta and its castrated collaborators in the media have figured out that outsourcing to slumdog sweatshops is a losers game:

"Given the intangible costs of sending work 10-to-12 time zones away, and the lower quality of the work -- which six people interviewed for this story said was not yet on par with U.S. software development -- the pure arbitrage game may soon be history. "


"Rising salaries dull the allure of offshoring Commentary: Sending jobs overseas wholesale will soon end"

tunnel rat posted on November 8, 2010 22:54

Another Indian infiltrator, Arvind Panagariya, is peddling some more NASSCOM bullshit in the NY Times, in a piece titled "What Obama Can Learn From India."

At first, I thought he was going to be honest, and cover these topics:

1.  How to produce more cell phones than toilets

2.  How to keep you corrupt upper-caste oligarchy in charge

3.  How to lead the world in sales of "Mein Kampf"

4.  How to flood the world with millions of marble-mouthed slumdogs who remit 90% of their pay back to the upper-caste oligarchy

Instead, this slumdog peddled the typical crap:

The current U.S. administration, unfortunately, is succumbing to protectionist impulses. For instance, it recently imposed fee hikes of $2,000 or more on H1-B and L-1 visas for highly-skilled foreign workers at firms employing more than 50 workers, with half or more of their workers on H1-B visas. Another example is the discrimination in tax treatment based on whether the firms create jobs at home or abroad.

Of course, he was pretty much flamed in the comments section, except for the few illiterate slumdogs that chimed in from THE LAND THAT TIME FORGOT, like Sameer:

america gets 1.3 $
for each dollar the usa spend through outsourcing ... it means that a return of 30% ...
secondly ...
i find many Americans r much concerned for BPO jobs ...
personally i dun like BPO jobs ..
i believe as soon as the indian economy changes into a production based economy ...
BPO jobs will lose its shine in india ... as indian youths r much concerned about the "name nd fame" factor .. nd BPO jobs doesnt give so in india...
even today in india a engineering degree course or a medical degree course is the first preference of students ...
and regarding software jobs .. i believe if americans want to compete wid indian counterpart .. thn they must reconsider their salary figures as IT giants
hire indian software techie coz of their less salary demand ..

Thanks, you stupid fuck. 

But there was more insight from other Indians (I am seeing more bitching from the NRIs!):

Mr. Panagariya,

As an Indian techie who once used to be on the reviled H1B program, I feel that American engineers
have legitimate concerns in the employment immigration policies and related industry actions. Many American engineers with 20 years experience find that they are easily replaceable with foreigners with much less expertise and are willing to work for a little bit less. Unlike other professions like Medicine, Law or Business, there is not much growth in salary levels in Engineering with experience. Further the modern engineering process is designed to be compartmentalized and sent to the entity that will do it for the least cost - so to most employees the years of experience brings little advantage.

Irving, TX for example is full of "body shopping" companies floated by former Verizon employees, which offer H1B sponsorship, training and a possible placement with a client to almost anybody for a cost. Especially in their heydays till 2008, many of these H1B applicants used many tricks to burnish their resumes and inflate their experience - Housewives became experts in inventory management and pizza deliverers in supply chain management. Similarly there are innumerable violations of the intent of Work visa laws by employees, by employers and immigration lawyers who support them. Such violations not only hurt US workers but also other more legitimate H1B workers.

With these concerns in mind, it is a legitimate action on part of the American government to levy a USD2000 fee for every H1B or L1 worker that wishes to work there. The show of indignation on part of Indian outsourcing companies is duplicitous, especially when a typical worker bills out at 50 to 250 USD per hour. Let us say the median wage is 80 USD/hour - 400 per day or 2000 USD per week - Why is it so bad for the American government to get paid 1 weeks wages - that too probably once in 2 or 3 years. These modest fees are justified and the funds can be used for retraining programs in the US. Further India has similar rules - for example no foreigner is allowed to work if he is paid less than USD25000 - this is clearly a protectionist rule meant to prevent hordes of cheap workers invading India. So Indian government cannot complain about a US law that makes it a little bit more expensive to outsource work. In any case this will become a cost of business and will be passed on to the client, and may reduce the misuse of these visas.

Then you get the crap from the typical collaborator, who should get a tire-iron to his head:

Isn't the "they're stealing our jobs" refrain getting a little old? Reminds me of the "Gooback" episode of South Park.
How exactly are they stealing our jobs? That many American IT professionals have priced themselves out of the market is closer to the truth.
A couple years ago my company tasked me with staffing and managing a large org-wide program that had a big chunk of IT work. Our inhouse IT folks estimated the IT work to be about 30,000 hours, if I remember right. Given the timeline of the project, the estimate was that we'd need 2 IT project managers, 1 IT architect, 4 designers and 30 programmers.
We didn't employ enough IT staff to allocate to this, so we started looking outside.
The local staffing firms (similar to Manpower, KForce etc) gave impressive resumes, but the overall cost would have been upward of $15 million, because the hourly rates quoted ranged from $60 to $120.
Then we started looking at firms that do offshore work. The American company that we finally awarded the project to signed with us a fixed price contract for less than $5 million for executing the project, and an approx $1 million-a-year AMC. All the 30-odd programmers were based offshore - in India and the Philippines.
It's a better business model for them, it's better value for me as a business-owner.

Let us know when that off-shored project blows up, "manbearpig" and we'll round up some insurgents to clean it up, douchebag.

Then there is the typical eloquent response from an insurgent:

I love hearing about how "highly skilled" H1B and L1 visa holders promote productivity and so forth. The reality is that the H1B visa program, which once upon a time involved people with unique skill sets like a phd in solid state physics, etc, now are for any kind of job, assuming the person has the basic requirements of it. Thus programmers, engineers, etc are brought in under H1B's, many of them educated with no more then the equivalent of a 2 year associates degree here in the states.

And they are not paid market wages, they are paid a fraction of it, with no benefits, despite what the law says. More importantly, H1B visa holders are indentured servants, who cannot just go to another company and get a job that pays better, unless they can find someone to sponsor them. The Indian IT outsourcing/insourcing is not about productivity, it is about low wages, based on India turning out graduates of (for the most part) mediocre schools who are desperate for jobs, because without western companies, India produces very few jobs (other then outsourcing firms like infosys and wipro),so they have to in effect take jobs rather then create them themselves. And while there are many skilled Indian workers who are at the best level, a lot more frankly are mediocre at best, who get jobs because they are cheap, and the bosses at companies see this as being productive, since of course it saves them on salary and other things. Of course, the bosses don't see the other side of this, the often lack of quality (often caused by workers who don't understand what they are working on, or worse, as is common at many outsourcing firms in India, rapid turnover), and they also don't see what the employees of the company who have to oversea outsourced labor have to do to accomodate this workforce, spending a lot of time and effort, rather then in designing better ways to do things or better products, simply try to get the job done given what they are (and for all those of you who think the GOP is your friend, they just canned a bill that would have gotten rid of the tax credits companies get for outsourcing products).

And with IT, India is going to find that taking jobs from the west is going to end up cutting their own throat, much as export only societies like China are going to find, because cheap labor doesn't drive the kind of demand that the goods and services they are providing need, you cannot continue to create jobs based on cheap labor (put it this way, most of the Indian H1B workers in the US are not exactly happy; 99% of them, I can guarantee you,spend a lot of time trying to convince companies to sponsor their green card, so they can actually compete in the labor market and try to make a decent living). One of the problems with the Indian economy, much like the Chinese economy, is that the growth they are experiencing is coming on a zero sum basis, that what they take in their growth is taking away from others. They aren't creating new wealth, they aren't creating an internal market or creating new products or revolutionizing (sorry, Tom, but putting cell phone service on Mt. Everest is clever, but not exactly creating something new)...

Well said, wdef!

tunnel rat posted on December 13, 2009 18:34

Here is one more reason to refuse to deal with call centers in India:

ORANGE – Stacy Gore was on the phone with a computer technician in India who had remotely accessed her computer to help repair it when an image flashed across her laptop screen, shocking her.

It was a snapshot of her bare breasts...

...Gore, a real estate agent, alleges that Neos activated her built-in laptop camera while he was working and snapped photos of her and displayed them on her computer screen, making her feel uncomfortable, she says.

He also found and flashed the photos of her breasts.

Then, two days later, when she signed onto her laptop for the first time since connecting with the technician in India, the picture of her breasts appeared as her screen wallpaper, she says.

"Look, I'm a pretty mellow person," Gore says. "If some guy wants to look at a nude picture of some 45-year-old chick who was hot 20 years ago, then I say go ahead – that's fine with me.

"What concerns me is that other women and minors everywhere are probably using this DellConnect service, and this guy could be a predator."

Gore said the photo of her breasts was shot from her phone and e-mailed to an old friend several months ago.

And here is where it gets really weired -- the fuckin' slumdog tried to contact this woman:

Gore provided to the Register a screen shot of her computer that shows a blown-up picture of her naked breasts as the wallpaper, as well as an e-mail Neos allegedly wrote to her after their 2½-hour computer and phone session. The e-mail came from an Indian address.

In the Nov. 24 e-mail, which is riddled with misspellings and grammatical mistakes, Neos asks Gore how she is doing and whether she is having any issues with her computer.

He admits to finding a nude picture of her while trying to set up wallpaper for her laptop. He wrote:

"I saw ur NUDE pics i m really sry I couldn't say that over the phone that is y I m saying it now.

"N u look very very very very boosted me up and hope to have a good, sweet, cute, adorable, friend like U : )"

In the letter, Neos makes a reference to Gore's daughter – even though she doesn't have one. Gore believes this reference indicates that Neos may sending similar letters to other women by cutting and pasting portions of them.

"I bet I'm not the only one," she says.

A few days after the two spoke, Gore received a "friend request" from Neos on her Facebook account. She didn't respond.

According to his Facebook profile, Neos is 21 and attends Mumbai University.

Neos didn't respond to the Register's attempt to contact him at the e-mail address he used to contact Gore.

I myself, if faced with the misfortune of getting an Indian voice on the other end of a call, act quickly.  In my loudest voice, I shout "SHUT THE FUCK UP, MADERCHAD!  I WANT TO SPEAK TO SOMEONE ELSE, YOU COW-PISS DRINKER!"

Now, everybody should take this pledge:


It is a win-win.  If millions of Americans take this vow, companies like Dell would have to shut down their Indian call centers, which are packed with perverts, scammers, and identity thieves.

Posted in:   Tags: ,
Tunnel Rat posted on April 20, 2009 19:06

Posted in:   Tags:
Tunnel Rat posted on February 16, 2009 16:23

Priyanka Joshi of WashTech was quoted in a Seattle Times article about the impact of the economy on H-1Bs. In just one day, that article has almost 400 comments, with tons of H-1B horror stories. Many people are coming forward to document the discrimination of Americans by Indians in I.T.

Here is just a sample of the comments:


I was recently laid off so an H1B visa holder could keep their job. We both worked for the same boss, who you guessed it is here from the same country as my former co-worker and she protected his job. And guess what. Her boss is also here from the same country. So all three of these foreign workers kept their jobs and protected their own, while I was laid off. And the person who kept tehir job was paid more than me and had about 15 years less experience. So I know this program is being abused and used against American citizens.


My husband worked at a Bellevue education start-up company, and I can attest to the H1B visa fraud that takes place in this country from my husband's work experience. The company he worked at was actually headed by a man that originally came to this country on a H1B visa. He surrounded himself with fellow Indians, some on H1B visas. One particular H1B visa hire that came aboard was one of the company's worst employees but ironically was a longtime friend of the company head. This person was originally denied his H1B visa, but this did not stop the company from fighting this denial. My husband was actually asked by this person if he could back date the job post. The company went on to conspire to get this person's H1B visa and was successful. In the wake of recent layoffs at the company, this H1B visa holder still has a job and so do almost all the Indians while all the non-Indians have been laid off. This company probably has less than 8 non-Indians and at least 30 Indians and H1B visa holders. You tell me, is there something wrong with this picture?


Another important issue to remember about H1B visa holders, especially those from third world/developing countries is HEALTH INSURANCE. I worked for a small consulting firm in 2002 and they could not get group insurance because the H1Bs and their families ran up claims that were exponentially higher percentage wise than normal. This is because they did not have good medical care at home, so with their families, they came here and decided to get all their health care problems taken care of on the company's dime. This included heart surgery to repair a congenital heart defect on one worker's wife and also reconstructive surgery to correct orthopedic problems that another one's wife was born with. There were numerous other medical and dental issues that were attributed to the lack of good medical care in the home countries of these workers. This resulted in the company having to become 'self insured' and it created a hardship for everyone else. I know this information because it was quietly shared with non H1B workers by HR and other employees at the company. Oh and the best part, our premiums tripled.


What tends to happen at a certain large software company is that entire development groups become small ghettos of Indians. If a non-Indian applies for that job he will get an interview but won't be accepted for the position. This whole process is a type of colonization. The system becomes rigged in favor of the foriegners.

Also, there are stories where Indians will employ family members that are not entitled to work in the US, like the wife, to develop code. He effectively multiplies his productivity but he is still only paid one salary. Of course the company is quite happy with his high level of productivity.


MSGeek, your description sounds a lot like my husband's former work situation. He told me numerous stories of how the company weeded out non-Indian resumes from their open positions. Several Indian directors in the company would not even interview non-Indians no matter their work history or expertise. His company made a concerted effort to only interview Indians for many of the open positions. He said even when they interviewed some Indians for positions and gave across the board "no hire" that other Indians in the company would override their decisions because their Indian friend needed his H1B visa.

He also has tons of stories where new employees would suddenly show up to work. Several of the Indian executives or directors would simply hire their Indian friends on a whim without even going through the proper interview loop channels. My husband started investigating this practice and found many of these guys played on cricket teams together and were longtime friends. Also, he found their job histories were all very similar. He said they had a history of getting their Indian friends jobs at every company they were at.

To add insult to injury, it became clear a lot of these Indians with MS and grad degrees from Indian institutions were suspect. It became clear that many of these India based universities were merely degree mills.

Sorry folks, even playing the race card will not silence us. The truth is out, Desis -- you can't code, you cheat, and you discriminate.

Now please go home.

- Vineet Nayar, CEO, HCL Technologies

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